The Baby Name Wizard

I am still partial to Colfax, which was my guess for the boy half of the Jolie-Pitt twins.

Although Vivienne is very traditional, I think there must something really zeitgeist about it because I've been seriously attracted to that name and to Adrienne for the past year. I actually pouted a little when I saw they chose that name because now I will have to scratch it off my list. I'm one of those name snobs who can't stand to be seen as trendy in any way. But it's a very beautiful name and good for them for having 2 healthy babies.

I like Laura's alternatives, and am having one of those "aha" moments with Hendrix. I've never heard of anyone with that name, and I'm surprised at that even though I'd never considered it before. It's catchy and has the x and is for a revered musical figure. (Please, no one suggest that name to my husband).

I'm not so sure about Shadow as a child's name, though. I've known a lot of dogs named Shadow, and it's strictly canine territory for me at this point.

I like Vivienne, but I do agree is it a bit out of place with the rest of the Jolie-Pitt names. And it's already a celebrity baby name -- Rosie O'Donnell has a 4 year old named Vivienne Rose!

I know a 9-month old Hendrix! He is sometimes called Henny by his grandparents, who were not quiet about their dislike of the name.

I like, but don't love, the names of all the Jolie-Pitt children. Vivienne is probably my favorite of the lot. X names just don't do it for me.

I know a baby girl born recently with one of Laura's picks...Marlowe!

I think Vivian/Vivienne got a boost already from the Ya-Ya Sisterhood books.

Love the name Marlowe..would consider it if only husband liked it. I also vote for Margot...think it's very cute with the O sound...

"How ...boring?!" was my first reaction to those names. I guess I had expected something a little more spunky than the über-normal Vivienne, and something with more of a message like Pax and Shiloh.

How about Dido and Consuelo?

As long as it is not Carfax, it is okay by me! :-)

i'm not in love with knox.

knox pitt?

mmm...not so much.

i guess that knox jolie-pitt is better.

though i do wonder what all these kids with hyphenated names will do when it comes time for them to choose a name, should they marry.

Vivian/Vivien/Vivienne were all on my list when I had my oldest daughter a few years ago. My husband did not care for the name - he associated it with the (male) punk character Vyvyan Basterd in the 80s tv show "The Young Ones"; my mother associated it with Vivian Vance who played Ethel on "I Love Lucy"; my sister associated it with the Julia Roberts prostitute character Vivian in "Pretty Woman". Only my grandmother loved it because of the Vivian Leigh "Gone With The Wind" association.

It does seem like an extremely traditional choice for the Pitts, but I love it still...and Vivienne is my favorite spelling -- perhaps because all the letters are used twice. How many names can do that?

Anyway, in light of these developments, I am quite pleased that I didn't use the name. I'd be crying in my coffee right now. It's going to absolutely surge in popularity.

As far as Knox... this is more in line with what I expected. I like that it has a family connection. It's cool and tough.

Congrats to the gorgeous family!

my friends and i like to name things, like our ipods and phones. coincidentally, maddox and hendrix are two of those names. :)

Not sure if that X list above is supposed to be unisex or all boys, but I see Calix as more likely female than male--DESPITE the Greek meaning ("very handsome"), and possibly being in the "On with it's head" tradition of Aidan/Caden (Alex/Calix), and having the possible nn of Cal. Ok, maybe I'm convincing myself it *could* be masc. But I still see the nn "Callie" as more obvious for it, which sounds feminine to me, plus my first thought on hearing it was the botanical calyx, which seems quite feminine to me, PLUS has the knockout scrabble letter YX combination, making it even more appealing than "just plain X" to a certain set of parents.

I also agree that Shadow is pretty firmly canine in my mind (black lab, specifically), and Hendrix isn't toooo far behind (also for black labs, ironically enough--it fits right in there with the labs I've known named Ziggy, Marley, Satchmo, etc.).

Hendrix has the charm of being nicked to Henry, if it turns out that the little one's personality just isn't a good match for the full name.

"though i do wonder what all these kids with hyphenated names will do when it comes time for them to choose a name, should they marry."

Really? It's not that complicated--generations of families have managed hyphens and compound surnames without serious befuddlement. The Spanish tradition is to keep the paternal component upon marriage; but I'm sure the Jolie-Pitts will be like other 21st-century hyphenated kids, and choose whatever part they *want* to keep--all of it, some of it, none of it--when and if they wed, when and if they name their own children.

My husband had a hyphenated name when I met him. I had always known I would take my husbands name, what ever it was so I could have a cohesive family unit (my personal choice). Our kids also have hyphenated last names. I am assuming they will either keep their last names, take their spouses name or combine their name to make a new hyphenation.

Regarding the Jolie-Pitt choice of Vivienne, I felt that pang of dread. I have recently been in love with the name Vivienne and the nickname Vivie. However, since I don't have any upcoming children to name, I am just going to sit back and see how it is received.

My thoughts are that I'm not in love with either Knox or Leon. I think John Knox, so Knox has a religious bent for me. However, Knox is apparently a family name on Brad's side, and I'd be interested to know why they chose Leon.

As for Vivienne Marcheline, I think it's wonderful she's honouring her mom. Yes, Vivienne is much more mainstream than I would have suspected, however the name put together makes perfect sense to me: Vivian from "alive" (Latin), so - Marcheline lives on.

another o name that I like...

Echo

X names

Lux
Rex

I love Pax...before the Jolie-Pitt took it, I considered it as a middle name for a daughter.

Alex is another good x name although not original. The others I can do without....

Vivienne is very pretty and I think it will make it into the top 1000 this year. Vivian seems like a good alternative to the ever so popular Lillian and the attention this spelling is getting with the Jolie-Pitt twins will undoubtably cause it to soar.

I like V names but Knox...not so much. I was surprised by the choices. But healthy babies are good babies, no matter what they are called!

I was so disappointed when they chose Vivienne! It was my back-up name for my baby girl that is going to be born (hopefully) in about five weeks. I had it solidly picked for potential baby girl #2 if I didn't use it for this baby. Ack!

I have heard of Caro (CAR-o) as a nickname for Caroline.

Knox - if he ended up at school in England chances are he'd be called Knob. Which wouldn't be good.

Vivienne - V is very popular now isn't it. I'm slightly disappointed. Still love Pax though.

Off topic here, but I saw an -aden name this weekend I'd never seen before -- Graden (baby boy).

Having done the exercise where I had to name 17 kids, I believe that the more kids you have, the less you maintain a consistent style. I think almost everyone is attracted to more than one style of names. The more names you have to dole out, the more you are likely to move away from your original pick. So it makes sense to me that she likes edgy names and traditional French names. I think it's great that she has an opportunity to use both types of names.

OT - Am I crazy for loving the name Carmine? Does it sound too much like Carmen? I don't want my son to be mistaken for a girl. And what kind of nicknames could I use?

All my other name choices turned out to be in the top 100 which I would like to avoid as the rest of the family have some rather unusual names already.

Sorry for hijacking (or in the light of this thread, should it be hijaxing?)

I actually know a Knox--a guy about my age that I was in a summer program. He'd be about twenty-one or so. Not a very nice guy, so the association is not one I care for, but I still like his name--even if I thought it was really odd the first time I met him a few years ago. ;)I do like the edge of a lot of the X names, though. Maddox, although I'd never use it; Colfax; Hendrix; Lennox; Fox.

I'm also a fan of Jericho, Juno, Marlowe (for boys!), and Harlow, though again, probably never use any of them. Winslow I might actually use--it makes me think of the Eagles "Take It Easy" and Winslow, Arizona, plus gives the cool Win nickname that can be an homage to my grandfather Winfred.

I have to admit to a bit of a partiality to "--x" names, although certainly NOT to "Codex" or "Knox". The one thing that slightly redeems Knox for me is that it is a family name. Even the most eccentric surname-as-a-first-name can work for me if there is a sentimental reason for using it, like family connections, however tenuous.

"Colfax", Elizabeth T., is an inspired suggestion! I would never have thought of it, but love the sound of it. And it goes elegantly with "Lucia"...

Even when we first started shortening "Benjamin" to "Banks", I actually toyed with the idea of spelling it "Banx"!!! What a damaging admission. But then I recovered, musing that it made it a little too close to the name of the ubiquitous shapewear company. Or a staid, Central American financial institution...

Don't some "Rebecca's" breezily shorten to "Bex"? That I like. Has that devil-may-care Aussie quality. "Oscar" = "Onx"?? Probably not.

Well, I have an almost-3-year-old named Knox, and I've always loathed Angelina, so today is not a happy day for me. I preferred the usual reaction of "Notch? Nash? What's his name again?" to the reaction I now expect: "Oh, yeah! Like Angelina's kid!"

I'm hoping the name doesn't become hot, and judging by the preliminary reaction, it doesn't look like it will. "Knox Leon Jolie-Pitt" is a real trainwreck of stuttering meter and stumbling consonants. Even the first two names together, "Knox Leon," sound grating to me. So I think, subconsciously, that may turn people off the name. Plus, sometimes mixed-ethnicity names work... and sometimes they don't. "Knox" is so English and "Leon" is so French that they seem to clash -- regardless of how you pronounce "Leon."

Knox is a really difficult name, anyway, and the silent K occurs in only one other plausible first name, also pretty difficult and obscure: Knute.

So the harsh Anglo-Saxon quality of the unpopular silent K+n combination will mitigate against the runaway popularity of the X-names in this case.

I hope.

I admire their naming style, and like most of their kids' names, including the two newcomers. I've been hooked on Vivianne (that's how it sounds, not sure if that's the correct spelling) since I saw the Divine Secrets of the Ya Ya Sisterhood, and Vivienne is just as beautiful, if a bit more "normal." I think Knox is cute, different, and unexpected.

I second Echo, though I'd never use it. I know of an 18ish year old female twin set Echo and Raven. Also a 16yo Shadow, and baby boy Lyric.

Hmmm, future flop reality show... "The -x Brothers"?

I actually really like Knox - I even tried to get my dh to consider it a few weeks ago, but I was unsuccessful.

What I am not crazy about is the combination of boys' names in the Jolie-Pitt family - Maddox, Pax, Knox are too much when put together. Zahara, Vivienne and Shiloh do not sound like siters to me, but they certainly don't hit you over the head with a theme.

I love Echo.

Tirzah has a point with naming lots of kids. It would be hard to stick with a theme.

the Knute comment made me laugh--a few weeks ago I met a woman who wanted to name her son Knute but her husband wouldn't do it. So they named him Rockne. I thought that was pretty impressive for rural Alabama. Not that I like Rockne much more than Knute, nms.

Naming all the boys with an "x" name seemed pretty cool to me until I tried to say it out loud in an everyday context. Try saying "Time for dinner Pax and Knox." Do you feel like something is caught in your throat?

The Jolie-Pitt name i adore is Zahara. So pretty and so great for an African girl (I really don't get adopting a child from China and naming her Sydney Jessica).

On the silent K- names Knox and Knute--you'd *think* those were the only ones, but my preschooler had her own ideas. The week she learned about silent K, like in Knee and Know and Knight, my four-year-old announced that she was "Knell"--Nell with a silent K. She wrote it like that for a few months too, after she saw the startled reaction it got from her teacher. (She's 8 and she's over it now, but we still have friends who remember her as Knell.)

I figure it'll be her goth name someday, "Death Knell." And really, there are so many worse possibilities, I'd be grateful!

Another possible silent K name would be Knight; or Knick (ha!).

Will there be an off with its head spin off, Nox? Ouch!

And why not? Nox means night, and I like the way it sounds. Plus it's already in my list from when I went overboard with the 17 name challenge and did every letter.

Birgitte, the only Carmine I've known is a middle aged woman. So I thought you were loving the name Carmine for a *girl" before I read the rest of your post. I think Carmine would look and sound feminine to many people. I wouldn't use it for a son.

BrooklynBabe:

"Knox Leon Jolie-Pitt" is a real trainwreck of stuttering meter and stumbling consonants.

Couldn't agree more.

BrooklynBabe, you hit on it-- what's annoying is the disregard for the sound and combo of all those dissonant syllables. The actual name "Knox" can be great in another context.

By the way, I apologize for so baldly stating my initial non-affinity for the name. I just didn't expect anyone reading this would have a child named Knox. Just goes to show you can't make those assumptions-- there's a wonderful variety of namers out there...

AND, given the perspective of you and others, I really am beginning to see the appeal...

Sister Melinda, kudos to your girl for appreciating the joys of the silent K! And "Knell" is indeed the perfect ready-made Goth name.

c. Elizabeth, the root "nox" also means "harm," and it's probably the more easily recognized definition because it appears whole in the word "noxious." So it's a double-edged sword, and one I did consider before I named my son.

There's one issue with the name "Knox" that the Jolie-Pitts probably never considered. I thought when I named my boy that I had taken into account every possible mangling, mockery, or funny nickname -- "Hard Knox Life," "Knox Three Times," "Knox Gelatin," "Fort Knox," "Knox-ville," "Ob-Knox-ious," "Knox-Knox joke," etc, etc.

I forgot one thing: the most common way to make a nickname is by adding an "-ie" to the end of the name. So naturally "Knox" became "Knoxie." Which was fine until I heard my husband call "Knoxie!" across the playground -- and realized it sounds a whole lot like "Nazi."

I still love the name, but boy was that a curveball!

Any name can be turned into a taunt if it is said the right (wrong?) way or taken to heart.

My husband was pushing for Fox if we have a third boy. I've already nixed it. Seems too much like a soap opera character name to me (or X-Files!).

An O-ending name that was on our shortlist for our second son was Arlo. I thought for sure we'd name him that if he was a boy. He was a boy, but after meeting him, he just didn't seem like an Arlo. I was also partial to Waldo, but it seems too soon after the Where's Waldo craze to be named Waldo.

Oh, and our children have both our last names as last names but not hyphenated. I'm assuming when/if they marry they'll figure out what they want to do with their spouse. It's not really that big of deal.

Wow Patricia, I never even heard of it as a girls name before. Ok, back to the drawing board, again.

LOL@Knell, she sounds like one cool little girl!

Eo, I don't mind if anyone reacts negatively to the name. It can be polarizing, and I knew that going in. I sure don't take it personally, and I'm raising my boy with a good sense of humor so he won't take it personally either. Anyway, I think the personality makes the name, and once people meet the little charmer, they warm to the distinctive name too.

I really agonized over the musicality of my son's name, considering alliteration and meter. I don't want to post his last name in a public forum, but I will say his full name is mellifluous -- and contains a palindrome to boot.

And while this is the first time I've posted, I've been reading this site since its inception... and I was also a big fan of "Baby's Named a Bad Bad Thing," so I knew Knox wasn't one of the best-loved names. Rebel that I am, I just didn't care. :^)

BrooklynBabe --I feel for you, sharing your kid's name with one of the Jolie-Pitt clan! And I agree that Knox combined with Leon and Jolie-Pitt just doesn't sound good. Too bad they either didn't take that into consideration or didn't care. I keep hoping they'll opt to call him Leon, as I think that flows much better with the ln.

I totally understand why you don't want to post your son's whole name online, but I have to say I'm thrilled there's a palindrome there. I'm such a huge fan of them and, dorkily, try to start my day by getting up at a palindrome time-of-day (today it was 5:25).

"Any name can be turned into a taunt if it is said the right (wrong?) way or taken to heart."

This should be a black-boxed sticker on the front cover of every baby name book! There is NO taunt-proof name. But the good news is, there ARE taunt-free classrooms wherever excellent teachers enforce civility, and taunt-resistant kids whose parents have given them a strong sense of personal identity; and that's about as good as you can hope for.

oh..I am so sad.

I am due in one day with our third daughter.. My husband and I choose Vivian Day as the name. This was no easy feat. Our second daughter's name wasn't agreed upon for 6 weeks and it came only after a lot of discussions and some disagreements. Only a year later did it seem to fit her.
When we decided on Vivian, we both had tears in our eyes, we really love it. It encompassed everything we were looking in a name: classic, feminine, strong, nickname potential and familiar but not over used.

Laura had stated that it was gaining popularity- which worried me. I spent a couple of hours reading through all the comments on this site around vivian, but felt like it was a good bet. It may get a bump, but would never really be common.

I like rare names. My oldest daughter, who is 7, is named Ellery- when Laura put that name out there a few years later, I was a little worried. But, at least in my region, I
haven't heard of another child named Ellery.

How common is Vivienne/Vivian going become? Am I looking at another Isabella or Sophia or gulp..Jayden? (all very popular where I am from).

We love the name, don't want to go back to the drawing board, but at the same time don't want to have a name that is trendy and overused.

I would really appreciate anyone's thoughts on this. I am torn and can feel this baby coming!

I know I'm embarassingly in-tune with pop culture, but I think moms wanting to be hip would be better off avoiding Juno.
I think it's so tied to the teen mother character from the movie right now that it's lost that artsy-cool vibe it had just a few months ago.

Brooklyn Babe -- my sympathies that your unique name "Knox" is now a celebrity baby name... I imagine that part of the appeal to you was the lack of other Knoxes in the world.

May I ask why you chose it? Family name by chance?

Re: -x names, I saw an African-American girl in a magazine the other day, and her name was Onyx. I think that's really cool, sort of like a jewel version of Ebony. It would also be cute as a nickname for Veronica...imo much cuter than Ronnie or Nicki...although I like Vero too (Hey! And it ends with an -o!).

Also, if you say "Maddox, Pax, and Knox" fast, it sounds like "Maddox packs an ox"...just saying.

Vivian's mom - I feel for you! I would be questioning as well if I were in your shoes. However, if you love the name, go ahead and use it. Vivian is not going to be the next Isabella, Sophia or (god forbid) Jayden.

As for the celebrity angle, I mentioned to a friend of mine that I was living in fear that a celebrity would use one of the names I have chosen for my (hopefully soon-to-be-conceived) children. This friend happens to have a 15 year old daughter named Claudia. And she said to me, "When you think of my daughter's name, do you think, 'just like Michelle Pfeiffer's daughter, born 4 months earlier'?" The answer is no, I didn't even know Michelle Pfeiffer had a daughter named Claudia born at the same time as my friend's child. Did you?

It just goes to show that what you think is an inescapable connection now will probably fade to nothing over time.

I hope this makes you feel a little bit better.

Maddox Chivan, Pax Thein, Zahara Marley, Shiloh Noveau, Knox Leon, Vivienne Marcheline, Angelina Jolie Voight, & William Bradley Pitt.

They're so close to having the whole alphabet. Only missing F & Q!!!

I think the Jolie-Pitts ove playing Scrabble.

Go with Vivian if you love it. We watched friends for the first time just before our daughter was due. We'd already chosen the name Phoebe. then we realised that there was this irritating character on this very popular show...we dithered for a minute or so and then decided we didn't care. Adn sometimes people ask if we named her after the character on Friends. And we say no.

Wendy -- no, not a family name at all. But it was both hubby's and my first choice. We had seen the name used as a first name many years before, and both really liked it. I've always been interested in names, since long before I considered having kids, so I had many years to mull over possibilities, and I liked the name more as the years passed.

We didn't actually name the child for two days. We wanted to make sure he really was a Knox. After spending some time with him, we decided he was.

I think a large part of the appeal for me is that I'm part Scottish and part English, and the name, while associated with Scotland, is etymologically English. Like virtually all English words that begin with a silent K, it's a relatively intact transplant from Old English. And I've always been fascinated by Old English, so that added to its appeal.

Fun etymology fact, too -- from memory, so I hope I get it right: Knox means hill; it's also related to the words knoll, knob, knot, and nut, through a Germanic and ultimately Indo-European root that basically means "small bump or round thing."

How's that for dorky, Amy3?

BrooklynBabe -- Not dorky at all. Rather, very cool! I love it when people have such stockpiles of name/word knowledge.

vivians mom -- Go for it! KRC and Keren are right, the celebrity connection is fleeting. And while Vivian/enne may become more popular, I don't think it will ever explode. For too many people it just won't be their style. Plus, at least you're using a different spelling than Brangelina.

My first reaction was that Knox was taking the theme too far. You know, like Jinger. The sound just doesn't appeal to me... I wish it could be Knox- like Knoxville although um, not exactly. Knoxton... Knox... I don't know... anyway, Hearing that it is a family name raises it up for me.

Thanks to the person who posted all the Jolie-Pitts with middles. Does anyone know if Chivan and Thein are Cambodian/Vietnamese names?

Also, do any of the other kids have family names? I'm wondering especially if the biologicals do and the adopted ones don't. I've read adoption boards that said the media paid more attention to the Jolie-Pitts' "real" kid. I think folks in adopted families are sensitive to this kind of thing and I don't know that I've noticed it, but if the Jolie-Pitts are reinforcing the differences between their biological and adoptive kids themselves, that would be interesting.

As for using Vivian: the other thing is that as the Jolie-Pitt family grows, the impact of each name will lessen. I doubt that most people could recall all 6 of their children's names, and they will be less and less able to as the years go on.

I think if you love Vivian, go for it. If someone asks you whether Angelina Jolie was your naming style guru, you can give them your best "are you serious?" look.

As for Knox, my main association with it is unfortunately the expensive (snotty) private boys school up the way (if you aren't enrolled at birth you aren't going). It's a little off-putting and I find it hard to reconcile the name with what I imagine to be the personality of the Jolie-Pitt clan.

I agree. Use Vivian. I love it by thw way. It was on our short list for my now 11 mo son.

Like everyone else..."but Vivienne's normal!"

The religious connotations of "Knox" are foremost in my mind- every Ontario town has a Knox Presbyterian and/or a Knox United Church. Maybe he'll become a rapper in twenty years' time and call himself Knoxious.

BrooklynBabe, do you pronounce Knute like "Newt"? I always thought that one was an exception, and you pronounce the K- Canute (like the English king) and Knut being the same name.

Thanks, Eo. I came up with Colfax by looking for small towns near New Orleans, since I know the Jolie-Pitts own a house there.

Years ago I was a juror for a civil trial. The judge's first name was Knox, so ever since I have thought of it as a serious, stately name.

RobynT -- Chivan is Cambodian (means life) and Thien is Vietnamese (means sky). I agree it's unfortunate if only the biological kids are getting family names of one sort or another.

My sister is adopted and while her mn is her original surname, her fn is also our great-grandmother's name and our aunt's mn.

I think Vivian (Vivienne, Vivien) is going to be *extremely* popular. Vivian ranked at #210 in 2007, it sounds A LOT like Evelyn which ranked at an amazing #55 last year, it has the nicknames Viv/Vivi which sound very close to Liv/Livvy, and as you NEs know, Olivia is sooooo overdone, it has that lovely little letter V, and now it's very much into the mainstream. We just may have another Ava phenom on our hands, folks. I wouldn't touch it unless I truly loved it from the bottom of my heart of hearts.

Also, do any of the other kids have family names? I'm wondering especially if the biologicals do and the adopted ones don't.

Shiloh doesn't have a family name, either. I think the next girl was going to have had Marcheline in her name, adopted or not. Knox also has a family name, but I'm guessing the allure of the name wasn't necessarily the great-grandfather, but that it ended in -x.

I guess you could make the argument that a family name reflects their cultural heritage just as the adopted children have a name reflective of their cultural heritage. But again, Shiloh gets left out there.

Mari - I totally agree. I think it's the next big name. If a one on every playground feel is what you don't want, avoid Vivian and its cohorts. (But I think its a lovely name. I don't mind hearing it and encourage parents not concerned with popularity to use it!)

I hate to say it.. But I agree with Mari.

Use it if you love it, but it's going to be BIG.

Oh. I just wanted to add that I am trying to conceive.. And Leon is one of my future son's names.

That is, unless it explodes. It's already on the rise, and ends in N. :( My guess is that by the time my son is born, I won't want to touch the name with a 10-foot-pole.

Shiloh's middle name is Nouvel, btw.

Use Vivian. You always have nickname options if, worst-case, it goes into pop-culture overdrive--if little Miss Jolie-Pitt is called Vivi (like Rosie O'Donnell's daughter), your daughter can use Viva, or Via, or Vee. Just don't use the initials VD, eh? ;)

Is Shiloh's name a family name?

I do agree that one should go with one's heart's desire. That said, a name with a potential for ultra-popularity can bother me, but even more so if it becomes associated with a narrow sliver of time. If the classical name Vivian/Vivien/Vivienne gets a BIG bump for perhaps ten years, then fades away, that is so "date-stamping" as to be annoying. I suspect that classics like the now VERY popular Abigail, Hannah, Ava, Olivia will demonstrate that traceable rise-fall syndrome. Or will they go on and on, from now on?

I like certain three syllable names like Vivian that have been under-used, like the ravishing "Dorian". Used to be male, of course, but in this one case I don't mind it being poached for the female side.

Although the Jolie-Pitts may be many things, somehow I don't think they themselves would be making a big difference between adoptive and bio children. I could be wrong-- I am not an admirer of theirs, but they do seem to adore their kids without making a distinction.

It does irk me a bit that a few reporters keep making the distinction between the biological and adopted children, in virtually every description of the family. Surely that fact needn't be emphasized in EVERY story-- they are simply a family. (End of soapbox.)

Birgitte:
I like the sound of Carmine, but it reminds me of lipstick, which makes it pretty firmly feminine to me. Also, a little poem randomly included in a recent issue of First Things:
A painter at work on a triptych
Asked the sitter the color for lipstick.
"The only real red
Is carmine," she said,
In a tone a tad too apodictic."
Now, as a name for a girl, the lipstick connection wouldn't bother me... in fact it would remind me of a feminine dressing table... with lipsticks and flowers and a jewelry box. Kind of nice.

I am completely surprised that Vivian is already ranked at 210. I really like a lot of the old-fashioned-now-revived names, but the two that still sound irreversibly fussy and old fashioned to me are Vivian and Evelyn. I just cannot see the appeal. And obviously I am alone, as they are both so popular. Maybe I just don't like "V." Although I would like Ava if it weren't so popular. I feel like Vivian and Evelyn are like Shirley or Gladys. Names that, seriously, would be hard to see on infants. But of course, maybe Shirley and Gladys are rising, too, and I'm just that out of touch.

I've read that Angelina's only sibling James Haven (Voight) has said that Shiloh was named after him. The story is that their parents were going to name him James Shiloh but changed it to James Haven at the last minute.

If that's accurate, then it does seem that each of the three Jolie-Pitt birth kids carries at least one family-related name, while none of the adopted children does.

As a mother of 9 children (now grown) by birth and international adoption, most of whom have a family first or middle name, but not all, I don't think the names are as important as how the parents relate to each child and the children's perception of how their parents feel about each of them.

vivians mom --

I think you should name your daughter Vivian, because you and your husband love it. I fretted and fretted about name popularity before my daughter was born, worrying that whatever we chose MIGHT be too popular and MIGHT date-stamp her etc etc, but now that she is a happy healthy full-of-personality 7 month old, I Just Do Not Care. lol. Her name is her name, and it fits her. FWIW, I do not know a single little Emily (have met I think just one little Emma), so you never know with these popularity rankings. I have a friend who chose Sophie for her future daughter long before it became popular (there are lots of little Sophies around here now) and she has not regretted using the name despite its zooming up the charts right around the time her daughter was born. And I had some advice from a Jennifer who assured me that her popular name had never bothered her growing up and that I should quit worrying about it.

So you have to decide which would be worse: naming your daughter Vivian and then watching it become a popular name; or NOT naming her Vivian and then watching the name stay low on the charts after all. I think the second would be much more disappointing. But maybe that's just me.

Congratulations on your soon-to-be baby! Best wishes for an easy delivery!

According to yahoo.com it says that Leon is also a family name (Brad Pitt's great great grandfather I believe..).
I kind of like the name Leon, but i don't think i would ever use it..

Oh, condolences to Knox and Vivian-to-be's moms. As for Knox, I think it's great to have gotten there first and you can tell people, "Yeah, weirdly, Angelina Jolie named her baby after my son!"

Vivian seems different than Vivienne (they even sound different in the pronunciations I have in my head). And at least you'll get there early. I've said this before but you could have knocked me over with a feather when the name handed down over 10 generations of women in my family-- a name I'd have to have hated to consider not using-- turned out to be in the top 100, peaking a couple of years before my daughter was born. I usually just say her name, followed by, "She's named after my mom." That way I'm not saying anything snotty about other people's maybe-trendy choices or pretending it's not a popular name.

Laurie Anne, the Emilys were born in the 70s. When I began teaching college students in 1996, I had 3 Emilys and 3 Sarahs in every classroom. Emma took over much later, but again, they're off the tot lots now.

Thanks to all who responded about hyphenated names. One of the many reasons to use them is if same-sex parents want to be absolutely clear on school forms that the child is related to both. My daughter can pick either one she wants to use when she is old enough, or keep both even if she marries. We are, last time I looked, in the 21st century.

I didn't mean to sound so harsh on Angelina and Brad if they gave family names only to the biological kids. I could see it being somewhat logical to give the biological kids family names since as someone else mentioned the adopted kids have names that tie them to their cultures. It's giving each kid a tie that is important for them maybe. I'm just curious about how people approach naming I guess.

Everybody, check out this "name expert" report card on the J-P twins' names:

http://movies.msn.com/movies/article.aspx/?news=322705&GT1=BUZZ2

I have already aired my opinions on Jolie's (and Pitt, for that matter)naming style.

I feel annoyed on behalf of BrooklynBabe and son, and dismayed on behalf of the nice lady about to give birth to a Vivian. I agree with Mari and others that Vivian is on its way up. I understand in the rational part of my mind that one cannot reasonably expect one's favorite names to remain like those hole-in-the-wall restaurants one hopes will never attract a wider clientele.

This is actually approaching a sort of pathology, if you think about it (and doesn't make much sense, since when we ourselves latch onto a name, we are contributing to its surge in opularity). And it's a pathology in which I unfortunately share. Although I get no pleasure from saying so, if I had been considering Vivian, given today's naming patterns and Rosie/Jolie's offspring, I'd run the other way from it.

Apparently, I'm quite the one for coinages: how does "opularity" (for opulance + popularity) strike you? ;)

And Beth, your words of wisdom are well-taken despite my popularity pathology:

"So you have to decide which would be worse: naming your daughter Vivian and then watching it become a popular name; or NOT naming her Vivian and then watching the name stay low on the charts after all. I think the second would be much more disappointing."

One year ago I gave birth to a little girl who so very nearly was named Vivian/a. In fact, all through my pregnancy we called her Vivi. As we got closer and closer to delivery I started having doubts. We'd decided on Lucia for a middle name (in honor of her grandmother) and I felt that Viviana Lucia was just way too Italian for a little girl with Norwegian/German ancestry, and also perhaps a bit too froufrou. I just didn't love Vivian quite as much though, so in the end we named her Caroline Lucia. It took me a long time to adjust -- she was still "Vivi" to me for months after birth -- but today I'm happy.

Angelina said this about Shiloh's name in Vanity Fair magazine a couple of months ago:

"It’s a biblical name but we didn’t name her for that. It was a name my parents almost named their first child-- there was a miscarriage: Shiloh Baptist. Because my father had been shooting in Georgia and that was the most southern name [my parents] could come up with. It’s a name I always liked. I used to go under it in hotels: Shiloh Baptist. I’d gone under it when [Brad] called hotel rooms where I was staying".

I, like so many others, really like Vivienne Marcheline (although *anything* would sound good with that middle name; it's so beautiful) but am not so keen on Knox Leon.

When I google Carmine, I get the lipstick connection first and then jazz musicians, restaurants, actors and doctors. And also the composer Carmine Coppola.

I looks like it is firmly grounded as a masculine name and I guess you only think of the lipstick connection if you don't know any Carmine's to begin with. Am I right?

I could never name a kid Marlowe (any spelling of it) due to the association with HBO's "The Wire". If you've seen the show - and I hope everyone has - you'll know why. *shudder*

As for the J-P's, I love Knox and Marcheline... but Vivienne and Leon, not so much.

To AG, who posted earlier. I'm also a name snob who really tries to avoid being trendy.

Imagine my disappointment when in her last blog Laura mentioned Sylvie as being an "up and coming name."

Noooooooo! I just discovered this name and put it on my list should I have another girl.

I will be watching Sylvie closely now. If it suddenly enters the top 1000 (it's not even ranked as of 2007), then I may have to take it off my list. Drat.

Anyway, the zeitgeist phenomenon is why I've recently begun to appreciate classic names, which in the past I wrote off as boring, and not unique enough.

Maybe classic names like Elizabeth and Katherine are popular, but at least they are consistently popular and parents who pick them KNOW they are popular, and don't end up disappointed when picking a name meant to be "different" that suddenly shoots up the charts and looses its luster.

I guess I should stay a little on topic and comment on the twin names. My reaction is "eh." Vivienne is pretty, but I must admit I'm not sure how to pronounce it. The rest of her kids’ names seem to try too hard to be different.

Philomena, thanks for posting Angelina's Vanity Fair quote about Shiloh being both the name her parents had chosen for their first baby, who miscarried, and a pseudonym she has used. That's a different accounting than I had read of why the Jolie-Pitts chose the name Shiloh, but it still comes down to Shiloh and now Vivienne Marcheline and Knox Leon (2 family names) -- all three Jolie-Pitt birth children -- having family names, while the adopted children do not. While it has been noted that the latter have names from their birth countries, those names -- Chivan, Zahara, and Thien -- were not part of the children's original names. I think the 'solution' would be that the next adopted child (and there are rumors of an African boy and/or a Chinese girl) be given a family name to lessen the distinction between the two 'groups' of children in the family.

Laura, I enjoyed the article about your impressions of the newest Jolie-Pitt baby names in the Minneapolis Pioneer Press. Very insightful and a good promotion of your expertise, book and website as well.

I want to offer one minor correction: Léon Bertrand was Angelina's great-great-great-grandfather. The line goes like this: Léon (born 1823 in Québec), Louis Bertrand, George Bertrand, Rolland Bertrand, Marcia Lynne (later Marcheline) Bertrand, Angelina Jolie (Voight).

Reading that the name Léon came from Angelina's French-Canadian heritage, I went looking for her family tree to see if there is any connection with my own. Going back from Léon I found one of my ancestors (whose surname our family bears) among Angelina's ancestors too. This is no big deal because I suspect many of us of French-Canadian descent have at least one common ancestor and are "cousins" to some degree. But it's ironic in light of my never being a fan of Angelina, while my daughter admires and defends her. :-o

Here's the URL for Laura's comments:
http://www.twincities.com/ci_9880069?nclick_check=1

Looking at Angelina's genealogy, I noticed that her name is a family name too: Marcheline's paternal grandmother was Angeline (aka Marie-Louise Angélina Leduc) Bertrand.

Giving their children family names appears to be a tradition in both Angelina's and Brad's families. Angelina's only sibling James has the same name as one of their father's brothers. And Brad's full name is William Bradley Pitt, William being his father's name too.

Time for some 70s trivia: Wasn't Carmine the name of Shirley's boyfriend on Laverne and Shirley? I have an image of a loud guy with curly, dark hair. Do any of you remember that?

Yup, that was Carmine Ragusa. Fun fact: the actor who played him wasn't Italian (as his character was)--Eddie Mekka was born Edward Mekjian, in an Armenian-American family in Massachusetts.

Thank you, Elizabeth T and Sister Melinda. I was beginning to think I was the only one who remembered Carmine Ragusa! That's all I can think of when I hear the name.

Re: the Jolie-Pitts, I agree it's far more important how the parents regard and treat all the children rather than what their names are, BUT I also think it would be appropriate to give the next adopted child a family name.

Blythe asked:

>>BrooklynBabe, do you pronounce Knute like "Newt"? I always thought that one was an exception, and you pronounce the K- Canute (like the English king) and Knut being the same name.

Yeah, I've always heard it pronounced "newt," but then I've never actually known anyone with that name, and it's perfectly possible that's either an unusual variant or just flat wrong.

Incidentally, in Old English the hard "K" sound was pronounced, as it still is in German words beginning with "Kn." The Old English spelling of the root word is "Cnocc"; may I recommend that anyone reading this who wishes to name their baby after Angelina's consider using this far cooler, more authentic, Scrabble-winning, cutting-edge variant? Thanks.

Regarding Carmine, I think of it as masculine. It may be down to how close you are to Italian culture, and living in Brooklyn, I've had plenty of exposure to it. And while I never saw Laverne & Shirley, it definitely does make me think of a loud guy with curly dark hair.

Clio seems already to have been trendy and overdone amongst my set in the San Francisco area. Knox is .... oouch. Much prefer Rex or something slightly traditional to go with Maddox and Pax. Pax is my favorite of these.

Carmine makes me think of "Little Carmine," the dopey mob-boss/porn producer on The Sopranos who was renowned for his entertaining malapropisms. Any fans remember him?

My former roommate also named her Italian Greyhound Carmine. It's so hard to readjust and think of a name for people once you've known it on a dog (like my problem above with Shadow---hyz, I agree that it's a black lab name). When I think of Carmine, I think of this skinny, neurotic little pup. But I'm open to changing those perceptions!

An addition:

This is also why I generally don't like giving dogs "ordinary" people names. I find it so odd to meet a dog named Sarah or Annabel (both of which I have). It just doesn't compute. Growing up, our dogs were Mosby and Duffy.

Of course, now I went and named my dog Bella after my favorite Dickens character (Bella Wilfer) only to learn that it was the number 1 dog's name of the year! I never thought that would be me. Better to have that experience with a dog than a child, I guess :)

Are you folks pronouncing Carmine the Italian way (Car-MEE-nay) or the English (CAR-mine)?

I like Vivienne, and I agree that it's definetly going to rise in popularity.

Carmine is masculine and Italian. It's very rare, I'm married to an Italian and I've lived in Italy for years and have never met a Carmine, but maybe it's because I live in northern Italy, and Carmine is a typical "southern" name.

Valerie, the Italian pronunciation of Carmine is CAR-mee-nay, the accent is on the first syllable.

I disagree with the idea that Angelina and Brad should give their next adopted child a family name. From my friendships with many families who have adopted girls from China, it is most important that the kids retain a tie to their cultural heritage, particularly if the parents are not of that ethnicity. The old ideas that you should completely integrate them into their new culture and family has been generally discarded. Now, families make a strong effort to bring the traditions of the original home country into their new homes. May adoptive families start this off by either retaining the child's original name as the middle name, or giving them a middle name from their original home as Angelina and Brad has.

Another note, it is not part of the Asian tradition to pass on family names from generation to generation. Each generation gets their own set of names.

I went to college with a very masculine guy named Carmine. Pronounced CAR-mine.

Sensible (and amusing) naming commentary from the London Telegraph: "Angelina Jolie has failed the name game"

"Judith Woods regrets that the Pitts saw sense when naming their twins - but knows the children will one day thank them for it"

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/portal/main.jhtml?xml=/portal/2008/07/15/ftan...

I think Felix has a lot of potential. It has the kicky -x ending, a great meaning and is unusual but not unknown.

New twins:
Tate Franklin (boy)
Cecelia (nn CeCe) Ruth (girl)

I love it!

Re: adopted vs. biological kids getting family names.

Arrgh. Don't go there. While I am not a fan of the Jolie Pitt family, I see nothing that indicates that they treat their kids differently depending on how they arrived in the family.

I am an adoptive parent. My daughter's name is not a family name, she does have part of the name she was know by in the orphanage as one of her middle names. I plan to adopt again, my next daughter's name will include family name... why? Because my great aunt died after my first daughter's adoption and I wish to honor her. If these kids were biological, or one had been adopted and one was biological the result would have been the same result.

In fact, in my family, about half have family names, the others do not... the circumstances surrounding the naming of the child varied and of course parental preference came in. And interestingly enough, the older children in general are LESS likely to have family names than the younger ones. Perhaps because the parents first chose names they REALLY love and by the time they get to baby 2 or 3 they can't agree on a name so they start naming after relatives. :)

Personally, if I was Maddox or Pax I would be glad that I did not get the family name Knox Leon... (no offense Brooklyn Babe, but Knox isn't my style and as you said Knox Leon Jolie Pitt is a mouthful).

Wow, some of you are already calmly discussing Brangelina's next adoption and I'm thinking of the friends I know with young twins who took at least a year to get used to the idea, let alone having four other children and both having international careers. I'm really hoping six will be enough!

But Valerie, they've often remarked that they want Zahara to have someone who "looks like her" in the family the way Maddox and Pax have each other. That leads me to believe at least one more adoption will be in the works.

Plus, with 1 nanny per child, they've definitely got the help to make things run more smoothly. Not saying that twins aren't difficult, regardless of the family's situation, but I have a feeling your friends are maybe a bit more on their own than the Jolie-Pitts when it comes to childcare.

Does anyone know how many children Mia Farrow wound up having, through birth or adoption?

Mia Farrow ended up with a total of 15 children through both birth and adoption!

Yup, there are so many theories in the adoption world, and they can be a bit difficult to navigate.

We adopted a local, American foster care infant who has no known international ties. Had he been from Haiti or India, we might have considered incorporating a name used in those countries, but I rather doubt it. We certainly would have talked from the beginning about his country of origin, and encouraged learning about it, etc.

As I've babbled about here ad nauseum, we loaded him up with as many family names as possible- (all three middle names are from relatives.) We did choose a first name with a vague similarity to his birth name, only because he wasn't freed for adoption until age two, so during home visits etc. to the birth family he had been hearing his birth name. We didn't want his little identity to be shaken. Serendipitously, that similar name we chose turned out to ALSO be a family name of ours, which we didn't know at the time!

To me, once you create a family, by however means, those names become a kind of community property. Banks has as much right to have Perry as one of his middle names as I do-- we're both related to my mother's family, just through different means. It doesn't mean he must reject his "bio" relatives, or not be interested in their origins too.

I don't think one need be doctrinaire about bestowing family names, but as a bit of a sentimentalist, I can't imagine not using them for MY children, adopted or biological. If the Jolie-Pitts did indeed make some kind of (to my mind, artificial) distinction, I find it disappointing. But, who knows, for sure?

From Wikipedia:

• Matthew Phineas Previn (born 1970)
• Sascha Villiers Previn (born 1970)
• Fletcher Farrow Previn (born 1974)
• Soon-Yi Previn, (born in South Korea 8 October 1970, adopted c. 1978)
• Lark Song Previn, (born in Vietnam 1973, adopted 1973)
• Summer Song Previn (also known as Daisy), (born in Vietnam c. 1975, adopted 1976)
• Ronan Seamus Farrow (born 1987), (birth name Satchel O'Sullivan Farrow)
• Moses Amadeus Farrow (also known as Misha Farrow) (born 1978, adopted 1980)
• Dylan O'Sullivan Farrow (also known as Eliza Farrow, current name is Malone)
• Tam Farrow (1979 – 2000)
• Isaiah Justus Farrow (born c. 1991)
• Quincy Farrow (now known as Kaeli-Shea, adopted 1994)
• Frankie-Minh (born 1991, adopted 1995)
• Thaddeus W. Farrow (born c. 1988, adopted 1994)
• Gabriel Wilk Farrow
  

Tirzah, most of the children (primarily girls) adopted from China are not yet adults, so we'll need to ask them about names some years from now. Also, a large percentage of Chinese girls have been adopted by families with no birth children, so the factor of some children being born to the parents while others were not would not come into play in those families. I agree that it can be a good idea to give the child a name from his birth culture/language, preferably one of his/her own original names. And I agree that adoptive parents should try to create a tie between their children and others of their ethnic background, even though that is often very difficult to do because the children themselves want to assimilate and because you can't teach a culture that isn't your own. Too, those who are of that culture (such as native Koreans or even Korean Americans) often don't consider a child raised by American parents as *really* one of them. For my Vietnamese immigrant friends, being Vietnamese means being culturally Vietnamese and speaking the language fluently. They see my two (adult) sons adopted from Vietnam (as babies) as Americans. And one of those sons has observed that many Korean or Vietnamese adoptees identify closest with other Asian American adoptees.

When you have a mixed family of children born to the parents and children adopted internationally, there can be perceptions among the children, correct or not, that a parent prefers the adopted children -- or the birth children. In our family our oldest (birth) child sometimes believed I preferred "the orphans", while after he grew up, one of our adopted sons said he had thought my husband preferred our birth son when they were children but sees now that that wasn't the case.

With the Jolie-Pitt family having a naming schism (probably unintentionally) between adopted children who carry no family names and birth children who do, I would advocate naming the next adopted child a name that has both a name from his/her country of origin and a family name, even if it takes three names to accomplish that.

As for Asian naming traditions, those are fine for children named by their Asian parents, but I believe that giving a family name to an internationally adopted child can be very meaningful. Our first two children, by birth, have names from our families (our parents, siblings). Our second daughter, adopted from Korea, has my first name as her middle name, and our second son, also adopted from Korea, has my husband's first name as his middle name. That has always been very special for him, and he named his first son that name too.

Fina, interesting you mention Mia Farrow. I can remember way back always being excited to hear what she would be naming her newest child-- she had real naming flair from the start! I like the way both she and the earthy Marie Osmond seem to regard their large clans. When questioned about which of her many children are adopted, and which biological, Marie sometimes responds with a laugh, "Oh, I can't possibly remember"!

And thanks, Fina for that updated list. I didn't know what some of the later ones were. Thaddeus W. Farrow and Gabriel Wilk Farrow-- handsome. Interesting that some of them seem to have "flexible" names, shifting back and forth to different ones...

Patricia, I appreciate your insights. I just wanted to reply to your comment that Koreans don't see adoptees as really Korean.

Each culture has their own requirements for what makes them of that culture. My husband is Japanese. In order to be really considered Japanese by a Japanese native, you must have citizenship, language, culture knowledge and Japanese blood. Hence, my husband, a 3rd generation Japanese American, is not accepted as really Japanese by natives. In China, however, you only need to have Chinese blood to be considered Chinese. I am 6th generation Chinese American. My grandparents' generation, my parents' generation and my generation do not speak Chinese. Yet we feel very accepted by the Chinese native community. Hence, I suspect that the adopted Chinese girls will also feel accepted when they become adults. America is unusual in that it only requires citizenship to be a "real" American.

I find the different requirements of various cultures very interesting.

My daughter is Chinese. I am not. We go to a Chinese American church which has 1-4th generation immigrants many of whom speak Chinese, many don't. She is accepted as Chinese by all in the church and through out the Chinese Community in our area.

What I find funny is just about every white adoptive family I know has incorporated part of their child's Chinese name into their English one.

On the other hand, all the Chinese American families I know follow the custom of giving the child a legal English name and a separate Chinese name. There is no expectation of having a Chinese name incoporated in the legal name.

Wendy,

Thanks for sharing about your experiences with the Chinese American (non-adopted) community. My kids went to Korean church as children and they too were acknowledged as being Korean, and we all -- non-Korean parents and our children -- were welcomed by the congregation.

But within the wider Korean-American community, and especially in Korea, the adoptees are seen as a group apart, and it's often difficult (to impossible) for them to be accepted as 'regular' Koreans as adults.

As for names, one of my sons married a native Korean. They live in NY where my son is a professor and spend their summers in Korea. Their sons' legal names are American-name Korean-name Surname. I've seen this as a common practice with Korean American families (immigrant parents) that I've known. The boys sometimes are called by their American names and sometimes by their Korean names. This works well for my sons' family so far (the boys are 2 yrs. and 3 mos.) and pleases both sets of grandparents. :-)

Congratulations on your forthcoming addition to your family!

I agree that native/cultural Koreans don't really seem to know what to make of Korean adoptees. If you're just an American born person with Korean blood, raised by Korean parents, but you're not culturally Korean (don't speak the language fluently, don't follow various traditions, etc.), native Koreans often feel free to judge you as a "bad Korean". If you're a person with Korean blood adopted by a non-Korean family, though, I think the reaction is more one of pity/distance. They can't judge you, because it's not your "fault", but they can't relate to you like another Korean person, either.

To the extent that naming can help alleviate any of the alienation a Korean adoptee might feel from both their native and adoptive cultures, I can see good reason to try to give both a Korean name and a western familial name. But, honestly, I think the way a child is raised will tell him a lot more about how much his parents love him than whether he got Uncle Bill's name or not, and I don't see any indication that the J-Ps are doing anything to create insecurity in the adoptive children about how much they're loved, relative to the bio kids. I remember reading, when Angelina was pregnant with Shiloh, that she really hesitated about having a bio kid because she didn't want the adopted kids to ever feel like they were loved any less. She was more concerned about them getting this feeling from Brad than from herself--but she said that when she saw how totally and perfectly in love Brad was with the adopted kids, she felt confident that they would never feel second best. (Ok, so I'm *terrible* with pop culture, but I do keep up with Angelina and Brad--I've always liked both of them.) So I can't feel too critical about any of their naming choices, at least from that perspective. It seems that all the kids have gotten carefully considered, personally meaningful names, and as an NE, I couldn't ask for more than that.

re: the Jolie-Pitt's...

My .02, fwiw. When my neice was born, my SIL didn't give her a "family middle name" as every other child in our family had (nor was her first name a "family name"). I complained to my dh about it, "How sad! Tiffany doesn't have a family name!" and his answer? "Yes she does. Our LAST NAME is a family name."

So to me, it's the *care you give in choosing a name for your child* that counts, whether it's The Name You Love, a name you feel represents what you want to "say" to your child, a name from their country of birth, or a name that's been used for generations in your family (whether you love it or not).

"My kids went to Korean church as children and they too were acknowledged as being Korean, and we all -- non-Korean parents and our children --were welcomed by the congregation."

Patricia, I've noticed that this varies a lot from church to church, which I guess is to be expected. We've seen Korean churches that are relatively welcoming (as much as they can be, considering that most services are in Korean, and much casual social chat is also in Korean)--but they genuinely seem to want anyone with some Korean connection to join their church/community. On the other hand, we've had the funny (to us) experience of going to Korean grocery stores where Korean church members were proselytizing outside (handing out flyers and such)--they approached every Korean that walked up, and they start walking towards DH too, until they see he's with me (a whitey, lol). Then they turn on their heels and speed away. DH calls me his proselytizer repellent. He jokes, but the nasty looks from the old ladies in the store when they see him with me do make him uncomfortable--we don't linger over our shopping....

okay, this is totally OT... please bear with me...

Tirzah, Patricia and Hyz -- appreciate your viewpoints don't disagree...giving my experience only... we will have to wait and see what happens when the Chinese adoptees get older...if their experience mirrors the experience of the Korean Adult Adoptees.

My hope is that given the rise of interracial marriages in the US between Asians and whites, that many Chinese Amercian children with Chinese parents do not speak Chinese, that my daughter is part of a Chinese American Community where she gets exposed to the cultural traditions and rules, and the general blending of cultures that my daughter will be comfortable and accepted in the Chinese AMERICAN community as an adult.

That said, my Chinese exchange student was VERY critical of my cousin who is half Chinese and half white and was raised in a Chinese American community where he was cared for by his grandmother who only speaks mandarin... in fact, his first language was Mandarin.

They were both 16 when she met him and afterwards she ranted that he was NOT Chinese because he spoke Chinese like a baby. (Which was true... he and all his Chinese American teenage friends had refused to speak Chinese and he therefore lost his ability to speak it fluently...)

So, whether the Chinese will accept my daughter as Chinese is unknown...

Wendy

Beth said: "Laurie Anne, the Emilys were born in the 70s. When I began teaching college students in 1996, I had 3 Emilys and 3 Sarahs in every classroom. Emma took over much later, but again, they're off the tot lots now."

Actually, there are A LOT of baby Emilys still hiding out there somewhere: Emily ranked #2 in 2007 (combining spellings). And Sarah was #14.

I am shocked that Evelyn is more popular than Vivian.

Does anyone know what's up with Evelyn? I mean, is there some pop culture boost it got that I am clueless to? (Btw, I think it's a great name, just a little surprised it's so highly ranked.) Or is it just a natural for the times because of its own merits?

Still OT from naming--please feel free to ignore...

Wendy,
I agree with Tirzah's take on the difference between Chinese and some other E. Asian viewpoints on how "acceptable" deviations from 100% blood/language/culture/etc. are. I really don't think our experiences with Korean people would translate exactly to your daughter's experience. In fact, I asked a friend of mine who was born in China, raised very Chinese in America by Chinese parents, whether she ever caught flack for having a white husband and a mixed race child. She said that, to the contrary, she never had any problems from Chinese people, AND that she even had cousins in China who were actively trying to marry white men (which she claimed was some sort of trend there, and this has been kinda backed up for me by a Taiwanese friend) because they thought mixed race (Asian/white) babies were the cutest. Her words. I was surprised. I also know a number of people with Chinese heritage in other "mixed marriages" (Chinese/Korean, Chinese/Japanese, etc.), and the Chinese side of the family always seems to be the more open and accepting one. So, as far as your daughter is concerned, I'd guess she is better positioned than many people to be welcomed and accepted by a variety of cultural groups. Sorry if my earlier comments caused undue concern!

I think Evelyn is soaring up the charts because it has the beginning E, which is so popular in Emily, Emma, Emme, Ella, Ellie, Eden, Edie, Eleanor, Eloise and the prized V to boot. Its nicknames, Evie (rhymes with heavy), Eve, Evie (rhymes with Tv), Ev are very snappy and so in line with the current style for little girls. The beginning vowel is big too, I think - Ava, Anna, Avery and the whole off with their heads crowd.

I know another baby Leon recently and I think it will be fairly popular. I have several adopted siblings and am the only one who wasn't. I don't have a family name but many other siblings do. It didn't stop the whole You like so and so better than me. Talking to some of my friends without adopted siblings, I am convinced that this is just a part of sibling rivalry more than anything. I think that the names will only be an issue if there is an issue already there. When people fill unequal then they take those things as symbols of the inequality and I don't think that they cause those feelings by themselves. Since becoming a parent I've become a big believer in the do your best and do it with love philosophy. I know it has to apply in naming too.

Off topic: does anyone know how to pronounce Adelia? I came accross this name when comign my ancestry for names for the sibling game and I really like it but can't decide how to pronounce it.

I think Evelyn is popular for all the reasons KRC named (except that I don't think you can call Edie or Eloise popular names, considering they don't appear in the SSA top 1,000. Maybe on this blog, but that's another matter).

It also has the exact same meter as the ostensible #1 name, Emily. They're both dactyls (long-short-short), as are Addison/Madison, Madelyn (in all its variations), Isobel, Abigail, Annabel and Joshua, Christopher, Anthony. And, for that matter, Vivian/Vivienne! I think it's a metrical pattern that sounds fresh to parents. Though it seems to appeal more to parents of girls than boys, just from looking at that quick list.

So, it's a name with an appealing rhythm that's similar to other current chart-toppers, it features the dashing inner-V, it has a cute nickname (Evie) and the benefit of very few namesakes in current namers' own and parents' generations. Even famous namesakes are lacking for Evelyn, with the exception of Waugh. And I doubt that many of the current Evelyns are named for him.

I've often heard it said that names run in hundred-year cycles, and I think Evelyn might be more evidence of this trend. The name makes me think of Evelyn Nesbit. I guess you could call her the first supermodel. She was the world-famous "Gibson Girl" at the turn of the century; she married the then-equivalent of a billionaire, and in 1906 her jealous (and psychotic) husband murdered her former lover, the celebrated architect Stanford White. The love triangle had been weird and kinky and the trial was a huge, lurid sensation. I'm pretty sure that's why the name had a huge spike in the 1910s. Now that most people have forgotten Evelyn Nesbit, I think Evelyn just sounds like one of those charming, innocent, flowery Victorian names.

The only other association I have with the name is the male British author Evelyn Waugh; but his name is pronounced EVE-a-lin, so it's not quite the same name.

Coll,

That's funny that Edie and Eloise are not even in the top 1000! I didn't know that - I just spit out that list off the top of my head - but I know quite a few Edies under 6 years old and at least 3 baby Eloises. I guess they are inordinately represented among children I've met.

You are quite right about Evelyn having the pleasing meter of long-short-short.

The 2 high-school aged Evelyns I have had were Hispanic. Possibly, this name is also on the radar because it works well in Spanish. (But, I have had few Hispanic students overall, so it is hard to say).

When we named our son, Parks, we had more than a few people ask if we would spell it with an "X"!! I thought that was a bit much, personally.
I do like Knox and I love Lex.

Maybe Chinese culture is more open to overseas Chinese who don't speak the language because there is no one language. Here's a good argument starter: whether Chinese dialects can be treated as different languages, when they are phonologically different but share the same character set and meaning assigned to those characters. Does anyone know if there is any friction among the populations of Chinese speaking different dialects, or among the different Chinese ethnic groups?

Also, mentioning how Leon and Angelina are far-flung family names reminds me of a previous blog about how if you go back far enough any name becomes a family name. 2 parents, 4 grandparents, 8 great-grandparents, and so on, other relatives, taking into account all the middles, modifying for gender... The list becomes long. Then you match for the style you are trying to achieve.

This won't quite follow the track of the thread, but I'd suggest Niko as a brother for a Knox.
Obviously the boys' names have a similar sound, but if I had to pick an odd one out (in terms of names only), it would be Pax.
For some reason that one has such a "hippy," vibe to me, which I don't get from the other children's names at all.
If I were suggesting a sibling for a random Pax and ethnicity weren't a concern, I think I'd throw out Kai.

I think wikipedia might be a little off with Mia Farrow's kids -- I've followed her family quite a bit over the years, and have only ever known of 14 kids, not 15 ... Gabriel Wilk is stumping me, as I'd never heard that name before, and looking again at the list of her kids, I think Thaddeus and Gabriel Wilk might be the same person (the kids seems to change their names a lot) ... read more: http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,93988,00.html (Thaddeus is not mentioned in this article as one of the kids, but he is in the wikipedia article referred to above by Fina).

Also, referri